This week

I just received a note from Greg, explaining that he has several personal and church commitments coming up. He concludes,

Hopefully, I will be back in our discussion by the end of next week.

Just didn’t want you to wonder why I did not respond in a timely manner.

We all have commitments, and the arrangement among the four authors is that the schedule is therefore flexible.

In the meantime, I ask that those who are in sympathy with Greg’s views on apostasy post comments offering their own scriptural rationales for why one or more of these doctrinal errors cause a Christian to fall away.

You see, the goal here is not to “win.” The goal is to be faithful to God, and being faithful to God means finding the truth of his will. Therefore, I truly hope that the best possible case is presented in defense of his views. If he’s right, I want to be persuaded.

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12 Comments on “This week”

  1. Robert Baty Says:

    Royce Ogle writes:

    > This is how stupid this discussion
    > is and has been for decades.

    Bob Brandon writes:

    > I suspect that this experiment
    > has about run its course.

    My apologies again for failing in my feeble efforts to keep the main players to the shallows before getting out into the deeper waters.

    Maybe Jay and the others can salvage it.

    Considering its billing, it appears Royce and Bob may be correct regarding its present state.

    Sincerely,
    Robert Baty


  2. I am anxious to hear the responses of Phil and Greg in regard to Jay’s last post. I do not believe that this is the end of this discussion but the beginning. There has been an effort of both sides to frame the discussion. It is now time to deal with the real issues. I for one am excited about the effort that is yet to be made.

  3. Robert Baty Says:

    > “It is now time to deal with
    > the real issues.”

    Alas, it was earlier and they would not!

    Can they even agree on what the “real issues” should be for purposes of this venue?

    We’ll see!

    Sincerely,
    Robert Baty

  4. laymond Says:

    Dell, I truly hope you are right, but I sincerely doubt that you are. I have held many discussions with “conservatives” who maintain that Greg’s statements to which Jay referred (Greg’s statements being their statement) is absolutely true, and provable from within the scripture. Sorry to say they have always kept that secret to their self, and like minded brethren. They seemed to enjoy the discussion as long as the “big bomb” was held in reserve “The truth in scripture bomb” but when they are asked for proof, if they come up with anything at all it is weak, even after all the stretching, stirring and adding to. Then all I have talked to seem to think they have proven their point and there is no longer a need for such a discussion.
    Like I said I hope you are right, so I might finally be enlightened by the conservative truth.


  5. The proof will be in the pudding so to speak. I expect sometime this weekend someone from the conservative segment will take up the cause, answering all the arguments put forth. Afterall, these answers have been 150 years in the making…………


  6. […] will be responding late this coming week. In the meantime, I challenged the conservative readership to offer their own explanations for why certain doctrinal errors damn. And I’m quite sincere. […]

  7. nick gill Says:

    There is a story in Scripture about Jesus encountering a demon-afflicted man. As soon as the Son shows up, the demon screams, “Are you here to destroy us?”

    Jesus walks in the room, and the demon gives up!

    I’m not accusing anyone of being demon-afflicted, but PLEASE, can we have a little less doom-and-gloom?

    This blog has not been operating for a month yet, and already people are saying it has failed!

    Four VERY BUSY people trying to carry on a correspondence conversation cannot be described as having failed in under a month! Let’s have some realistic expectations — I do not believe this conversation could be called a failure even if it goes on for a year without some sort of conclusion.

    Let’s be patient, steadfast in prayer and hope, and allow these honest brothers to converse.

    in HIS love,
    nick

  8. laymond Says:

    It appears to me this discussion is really about “instrumental music” being one doctrine which will condemn.

    Question; Will any who question the validity of the doctrine established by the catholic Church 400 years after Jesus death, have any chance of salvation, although they confess that Jesus is the “Son of God” just not God himself.

    Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as “the central dogma of Christian theology”.

    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three individual persons equal in one Godhead.

    Why not discuss something as important as who Jesus was.? And use scripture to do it.

  9. Randy Says:

    I think there isn’t much debate over this issue and quite a bit over IM within churches of Christ. If IM is sinful, as proclaimed by many conservatives, then we have a major problem, meaning ALL progressives who practice such, have lost their salvation and maybe those who even hold this view, have lost their salvation. This is why this topic is so touchy…because this means some are viewed as apostates. Those seen as supporting IM are seen as departing from the truth, meaning salvation is lost.

    I am going to back off from this topic and allow the Authors to direct the paths of this site. I think John Mark Hicks has asked some interesting questions that need hit and many points over-looked due to our focus on IM. But, I see no way around IM far as a fellowship issue. I would like to see more input from Todd on here. Phil seems to be carrying the weight and doing a great job replying.

  10. nick gill Says:

    Here’s a question for you, Laymond — who does the Old Testament say will save Israel from its sins?


  11. In asking this question my early background is I was converted in an instrumental church of Christ currently I’m attending a conservative noninstrumental church of Christ. Basically our teaching was identical.Wwhen I hear and read some of the things people say about instrumental churches, it is heartbreaking especially coming from people I know as brothers.In a way I guess now I know how Jesus must’ve felt when his brothers came to get him because they thought he was crazy and his disciples said Jesus your mother and brothers are here for you. When my brothers preach that my other brothers are damned, they love me and them and like Jesus’s brothers they are sincere I’m sure, I have to bite my tongue pray and I just have to say well, yes I’m sure they have some congregations that are “out there” as does thenoninstrumental COC and I can choose not to fellowship with unfaithful
    congregations. In fact I knew brothers who did come out of “liberal congregations who departed from sound doctrine. I would never even dream of instruments in the congregation I attend because scripturally I’m commanded not to be a stumblingblock to my brethren and I won’t if I can help it.
    Neither will I go to my instrumental brethren who I know are faithful to scripture and condemn them because the two scriptures used don’t seem to actually be speaking of church services and the stuff I’ve read about cupid/satan are extrabiblical and seem to be conjecture. I’m bringing this up because some comments address whether instrumental music is a damnable heresy and one person brought up that instruments came in 400 years after Christ
    You don’t have to rush the discussion of my questions just post the answer to it when it’s pertinet but I do have concerns I will hopefully see addressed at some point in the dialogue. .I’m confused, because on one hand COC says history and scripture say don’t but the judgment in other areas seems at least to me maybe because of my background, inconsistent. I first want to say I’m not asking that anyone be removed from fellowship and in fact many brethren who disagree with me on the next point I truly pray God makes necessary allowances for or shows them the error if it’s a damnable one. I still consider them brothers and won’t try to take away from the Lord’s Church unless they actively teach heresies that I know are unbiblically such as Jesus didn’t rise from the dead or baptism isn’t essential to salvation or eternal security etc. My problem is Christians in the military. if you look at history prior to constanteen you see the church at least in writings didn’t participate in the military but today the larger segment of both the Instrumental and noninstrumental COC alike seem to support Christian military involvement arguing along the same lines as most denominations, Cornelius was in the military, Jesus said the military centaurion had the greatest faith and didn’t prohibit joining the military.He didn’t ask the centaurion to “go and sin no more, and ven if he did he didn’t say leave the military. We are just defending ourselves, what would you do if your wife was being raped? and we must honor our government. I’m sure I’m leaving some arguments out Honestly I do believe God uses the military to achieve his purposs I just don’t understand how I can drop bombs on my brothers and sisters and say I love you but and I wonder if a brotheror sister, were ask to do this to a place where wife and children live if he/she would be as willing to engage in combat as when it’s spiritual brethren at risk. It just seems to contradict so much scripture and I know the bible says honor your government I can deal with this I can provide food shelter and help to soldiers and citizens alike and I can pray that God upholds our nation. We do have a COC President, Garfield, who was in the military and in fact was assasinated which has me scratching my head because he’s the only true Christian president I can verify so far. I look forward to reading comments not necessarily trying to debate the issue as I’m far from an expert and am exploring my position continuously. The only groups I’ve seen consistent in oposition to war are maybe the quakers and the Jehovah’s witnesses yet doctrinally we know they aren’t christians. I have seen many faithful brethren who say our swords should be pruneing hooks but they seem to be a minority. Most seem to feel that part of prophecy must wait until Jesus returns. That’s not what I read in Fox’s book of Martyrr’s or even revelation though as far as I can tell.
    Thanks for reading and commenting if apropriate and thanks for having these discussions because they are helping me understand some of these questions better. May we each grow in God’s kingdom
    Blessing and peace to all in Christ Jesus.
    Mike.

  12. laymond Says:

    Nick, I don’t think it was instrumental music or the lack thereof. I believe Jehovah God said he would, he even named the instrument by which he would do it.


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