http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/acampbell/cs/ac4c7.html

It’s called ORIGINAL SIN. Your theology ignores or denys it…and you will never “make the pieces fit” until you see it. Man is UNABLE to come to the Savior without the “drawing” by the Father. Christ said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

When you research “NO ONE” …you will find it means…no one! When you research “UNLESS” you will find it means…unless!

Man is born one of three ways: 1)Neutral (neither good nor bad, 2) Good (inclined to do good), OR 3) sinful (inclined to sin).

Did you have to teach your child to be selfish, lie, or throw a tantrum? Then how did they learn it? It was in their nature.

I thank you especially for your time to answer my inquiries.

Being married and having adult children, I think about this analogy quite frequently. The irony is that my children have often said I was far stricter on them than others their age yet they also know I will stick my neck out for them for more than I ever did for others.

I just haven’t found the evidence that supports the following:

“He’s [Mac] inconsistent for saying that all doctrinal errors that lead to sin damn and then saying that not all doctrinal errors that lead to sin damn.”

Perhaps if I was an outsider and was reading Mac’s (and others) comments cold I would better understand your claims. However, I have heard/read similar to these before and discussed enough to conclude I understand what is believed and practiced and I just don’t see an inconsistency.

The absolutely most loving, forgiving, encouraging and patience Christian leader I know (an elder in Ohio) would probably use similar wording to that of Mac. He and I have discussed this years past. He constantly gives people the benefit of the doubt as individuals but will be very vocal against belief systems contrary to scripture.

Perhaps that’s the real difference here. Jesus quite freqently would openly criticise groups like the Pharisees for their belief systems and at the same time be very patience (and eat) with Pharisees as individuals.

Mac is not inconsistent for asserting that no one is perfect. He’s inconsistent for saying that all doctrinal errors that lead to sin damn and then saying that not all doctrinal errors that lead to sin damn. And for saying that God gives new Christians grace to allow them to learn his commands and then harshly criticizing Todd and me for asserting that God gives new Christians grace to learn his commands.

There is a great difference between accountabilty and being damned for not knowing God’s will as well as the holder of doctorate in theology. Someone can be held to account without being damned. Indeed, I think the scriptures are quite clear that we are to hold our brothers and sisters accountable — and discipline is an important doctrine that both Jesus and Paul discuss. It is, a huge mistake to think that if someone is not damned for a mistake he is not accountable.

I don’t know if you’re married, but if you are, I hope you consider yourself accountable to your wife even for mistakes that won’t cause her to divorce you. Surely the pain of causing her to be disappointed in you matters. I don’t know if you’re a parent, but I hope you consider your children accountable even for mistakes that won’t result in your disowning them. Surely you can find a way to get their attention without putting them on the street.

And these are the Biblical models we’ve been given for our relationship with Jesus and God. Parents can disown their children, and husbands can divorce their wives, but this is not how you hold your children or spouse accountable. Rather, that’s what happens when holding one another accountable no longer works.

It seems like what’s happening here is Mac starts with an ideal that is rightfully shown to be impossible to achieve (as he admits). Then Todd and/or you propose a different ideal that also needs qualifying to be plausible. Yet, Mac is the one who is labeled inconsistent.

The one ideal advocates high accountability. The other advocates patience with rookies making mistakes. Are these ideals really that mutually exclusive?

Jesus also said, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” and “Judge not that you be not judged.”

Jesus taught the Parable of the Prodigal Son and the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant.

In John, Jesus repeatedly taught that all with faith would be saved.

The New Testament all fits together neatly even though different authors use different vocabularies and attack questions from different angles.

However, He did say, “Go and sin no more.” and “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48 (English Standard Version)

Perhaps while discussing ideals we should keep it simple and use the words of Jesus.

Just a thought.

I suppose all of us are spiritually immature when we first coem to Christ. After more than 45 years I can se a lot of progress in my own walk, but could easily give you a long list for the category of “much improvement still needed.”

So suppose the young couple knows church folks have always thought sleeping together out of wedlock was wrong, but in their immaturity they don’t immediately conform to a lifestyle like that of Jesus or his most mature follower. They may not see it as being all that wrong and we all make distinctions between sins we need to get rid of and the ones we want to keep a while longer.

May we assume God will continue to sanctify them in their walk and should we pray for their day by day spiritual growth? Are they any worse than the teen that comes to faith in Jesus (goes through the conversion process with all five steps for the sake of this point and audience) yet continues to gossip though they have been taught it is wrong? What about the person that continues to be arrogant, or spiteful or unforgiving, or selfish, or lacks discipline in prayer and bible study or walks contrary to any other scripture commnad.

It is my belief that is the case for each of us when we initiailly came to faith and it continues all the days of our lives, though God is continually cleaning up his children. None of us gave up all our favorite or secret sins right away. It wouldn’t be circumspect to say that fornicators could be forgiven b/c fornication is one of the big sins – not like the little ones us church folks still take pleasure in.

Oh how we underestimate the nature and power of sin in our lives and rationalize our own little pecadillos while condemning the insuficient walk of our sisters and brothers.