Once again, you’ve written a whole lot to try and convince me that a verse does not say what it plainly does say. Whatever water immersion is (and you do not deny that this is water immersion in this passage), it “doth also now save us”.

~~~~In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter says that baptism now saves us but in what sense?~~~~

In the sense of we were lost in our sins but Jesus saved us by washing them away by his blood which we come into contact only by conforming to his death in the grave of burial in water.

~~~~Read the context…The context reveals that the subjects, the eight souls “saved,” were those in Noah’s ark. The eight people in the ark were “saved through water” as they were in the ark. THEY WERE NOT LITERALLY SAVED BY THE WATER, AS THE CONTEXT REVEALS.~~~~

Again, you gotta put down the NIV. It’s killing you…spiritually. You quoted the KJV when it suited your purpose. What’s wrong with using it in verse 20? The Greek word “dia” means “through the agency of”, “by the means of”, “by reason of”, etc. In the full context of 1 Pet. 3, Noah and his family were saved by the water destroying the old, sinful world while saving humanity and starting again with a “new creation”. That is why Peter points to it as a type, pointing to the New Testament anti-type, water immersion which saves men.

~~~~Hebrews 11:7 is very clear on this point (…built an ark for the SAVING of his household).~~~~

Heb. 11:7 does not negate 1 Pet. 3:20, just as the requirement for faith or repentance does not negate the requirement for confession or water immersion. If Noah had not built the ark, he and his family would not have been saved. But it was still the water that destroyed sin and saved Noah and his family from sin.

~~~~1 Peter 3:21 does not say that baptism saves us in “any sense” OTHER THAN AS A FIGURE. It is the FIGURE of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ by which we are LITERALLY saved.~~~~

The words “like figure” does not mean what you think it means. It is a phrase translated from the word “antitupos” which means “antitype”. The Old Testament was full of shadows, reflections, types all pointing to the New Testament realities. The types pointing to NT immersion were the Flood, Naaman’s dipping in the river Jordan, the crossing of the Red Sea by the Israelites coming out of Egyptian slavery, the washings of the priests, and so many more. These things all spoke of cleansing, freedom, and salvation. These things all point to the antitype (the thing that is not a type or an image, but the real thing that images are a reflection of), New Testament water immersion. Go learn the meaning of antitupos and get back with me.

~~~~We are still saved through faith (rightly understood) alone.~~~~

The Bible no where teaches this. (Which is why you will never provide a verse in conjunction with this statement). In fact, the only time the words “faith only” are used together in scripture, they are proceeded by the word “not” (James 2:24).

~~~~Romans 10:9 does not teach that we are still lost at the moment we place our faith in Christ alone for salvation until sometime later, after we confess. The word “confess” means to acknowledge or agree. It often involves what is expressed with the mouth or at least with the mind (not everyone can speak). A belief that is genuine is marked by confession. A confession that is true reflects saving faith. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Son of God, but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person’s Lord and Savior.~~~~

I have no problem with your definition of confession. In fact, if you took out the first sentence, I would generally agree with everything you typed in this section.

The problem you face is that in Romans 10:10 Paul writes that confession is “unto salvation”. I can’t go to where I’m already at. No one asks for directions TO San Antonio when they are walking down the Riverwalk.

~~~~Notice in 1 Corinthians 12:3, “…no one can say that JESUS IS LORD except BY the Holy Spirit (not in order to receive the Holy Spirit and become saved after faith). It’s not the confession “in of itself” that saves you as an additional requirement after faith, it’s the faith behind the confession. Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together. We are still saved through faith (rightly understood) alone.~~~~

Okay, the Holy Spirit is an entirely different subject. I believe that the Holy Spirit operates through the Word of God only today, not by a physical, immediate indwelling. That is to say that the Holy Spirit dwells in men today the same way that the Father and Son do, by our knowledge and application of the Word (John 14:23).

But nowhere does the Bible teach that faith and confession are simultaneous or that they are two aspects of the same event. The Jews believed in Jesus, but they refused to confess him (John 12:42) which contradicts your assertion.

~~~~We literally get into Christ through Spirit baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13) not water baptism.~~~~

That is a gross misinterpretation of the passage. The preposition is “by” the Holy Spirit, not “in” the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit immerses us into that one body. What we are immersed into is not mentioned in this passage. Eph. 5:23 speaks of it though. So does 1 John 5:8. John 3:5 you won’t understand because you’ll make the same mistake Nicodemus made and think the water there is the water of the uterus during physical birth not realizing that the context of Jesus words is entirely about rebirth and rebirth alone.

~~~~In what sense are we (water) baptized “into Christ?” In the same sense that the Israelites were baptized “into Moses” (metaphorically) indicating their oneness, or solidarity, with him as their leader (1 Corinthians 10:2) just as through water baptism we indicate our oneness, or solidarity with Christ as our Savior. Now does 1 Corinthians 10:2 teach that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Absolutely not.~~~~

Once again a gross misinterpretation of scripture. You equate type with antitype, which misses the point of the relationship. When the Israelites were immersed in the Red Sea (and the cloud) they were at that moment set free from Egyptian slavery. The sinful was destroyed by the water (Egyptian army pursuing) and the people were saved. Being immersed “into Moses” was not a reference to the physical man, but the covenant/law that bears his name. Just as we are not physically immersed into Christ, but we are made partakers/heirs of the last will and testament/covenant/law of Jesus Christ. The antitype is reflected in the type in that upon our water immersion we are set free from the bondage of sin, which is destroyed, and saved. Romans 6 – which I will address again below.

~~~~“Buried with him by baptism” is obviously referring to the “likeness” set forth in baptism (vs. 5) — the reality that “our old man (sins) is crucified with Him” (Romans 6:6). Romans 6:4 uses the words “like as Christ” and Romans 6:5 says “in the likeness.” This shows that water baptism is a “likeness,” not the reality, a shadow, not the substance.~~~~

No. This only shows that water immersion is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection. It does not ALSO a symbol of our salvation. A symbol in scripture never points to two realities else that symbol has no meaning at all. Our immersion in water is symbolic of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, but it really affects salvation.

Keep reading. Romans 6:16-18 teaches that when we obey from the heart that form/pattern/likeness of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection we are THEN made free from sin in a very real manner. So tell me, how do you obey a supposed command to be immersed IN the Holy Spirit?

~~~~After we are saved through faith and Spirit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13) we are then (afterward) water baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3-4) just as the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Corinthians 10:2). Not literally water baptized into the body here, but “baptized into” in a “metaphorical sense” in regards to “identification.” We are still saved through faith (rightly understood) alone.~~~~

Gross misinterpretations aside, you are now preaching two NT immersions whereas Paul said there was only one by the time he wrote Ephesians 4:5. And again, nowhere does scripture teach faith alone saves, and again you fail to provide a verse to back that assertion. I’ll point it out every time you do so.

~~~~Notice in Galatians 3:27…~~~~

So now you go to the Greek. I was wondering…

You are either teaching here that salvation comes after immersion in water (which is contrary to your former stance) or you are making no sense whatsoever. Paul states in Gal. 3:27 “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ” thereby equating “being immersed into Christ” with “putting on Christ”. This is the first time a person puts on Christ. But for those of us who do not believe in Eternal Security, we realize that sometimes we take Christ back off again and must put him on again if we are to become faithful Christians again. There is no contradiction or inconsistency in what I believe, Gal. 3:27, and Romans 13:14.

God gave the right or the ability to BECOME sons of God to those who believe. You cannot BECOME what you already are, so if faith alone saves, then John 1:12 makes no sense. However, since faith alone does not save us (James 2:24), then John 1:12 makes perfect sense. Faith is the second step for man in attaining salvation (the first being to “hear” the gospel).

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter says that baptism now saves us but in what sense? Read the context. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” The context reveals that the subjects, the eight souls “saved,” were those in Noah’s ark. The eight people in the ark were “saved through water” as they were in the ark. THEY WERE NOT LITERALLY SAVED BY THE WATER, AS THE CONTEXT REVEALS. Hebrews 11:7 is very clear on this point (…built an ark for the SAVING of his household). 1 Peter 3:21 does not say that baptism saves us in “any sense” OTHER THAN AS A FIGURE. It is the FIGURE of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ by which we are LITERALLY saved. We are still saved through faith (rightly understood) alone. Romans 10:9 does not teach that we are still lost at the moment we place our faith in Christ alone for salvation until sometime later, after we confess. The word “confess” means to acknowledge or agree. It often involves what is expressed with the mouth or at least with the mind (not everyone can speak). A belief that is genuine is marked by confession. A confession that is true reflects saving faith. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Son of God, but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person’s Lord and Savior. Notice in 1 Corinthians 12:3, “…no one can say that JESUS IS LORD except BY the Holy Spirit (not in order to receive the Holy Spirit and become saved after faith). It’s not the confession “in of itself” that saves you as an additional requirement after faith, it’s the faith behind the confession. Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together. We are still saved through faith (rightly understood) alone. We literally get into Christ through Spirit baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13) not water baptism. Ephesians 1:13 – IN HIM, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation –having also BELIEVED, you were SEALED IN HIM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE… In what sense are we (water) baptized “into Christ?” In the same sense that the Israelites were baptized “into Moses” (metaphorically) indicating their oneness, or solidarity, with him as their leader (1 Corinthians 10:2) just as through water baptism we indicate our oneness, or solidarity with Christ as our Savior. Now does 1 Corinthians 10:2 teach that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Absolutely not. “Buried with him by baptism” is obviously referring to the “likeness” set forth in baptism (vs. 5) — the reality that “our old man (sins) is crucified with Him” (Romans 6:6). Romans 6:4 uses the words “like as Christ” and Romans 6:5 says “in the likeness.” This shows that water baptism is a “likeness,” not the reality, a shadow, not the substance. After we are saved through faith and Spirit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13) we are then (afterward) water baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3-4) just as the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Corinthians 10:2). Not literally water baptized into the body here, but “baptized into” in a “metaphorical sense” in regards to “identification.” We are still saved through faith (rightly understood) alone. Notice in Galatians 3:27, that those who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Now for the word “enduo” (put on), this word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it’s lusts.” This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to “put on” Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to “put on” Christ. To “put on” Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we “put on” Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must “put on” Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also “put on” Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let’s be consistent. We are water baptized BECAUSE we are already children of God through faith (Galatians 3:26), not to become children of God. The verb in Greek translated “put on” has the meaning of putting on a badge or uniform of service like that of a soldier. This verb is common in the sense of putting on garments (literally and metaphorically as here). In I Thessalonians 5:8 Paul speaks of “putting on the breastplate of righteousness.” He does not here mean that one enters into Christ and so is saved by means of baptism after the teaching of the mystery religions, but just the opposite. We are justified by faith in Christ, not by circumcision or by baptism. But baptism was the public profession and pledge, the soldier’s sacramentum, oath of fealty to Christ, taking one’s stand with Christ, the symbolic picture of the change wrought by faith already (Romans 6:4-6).” The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing onself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on armor he is imitating his superiors and trainers, is revealing himself to be a soldier. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier’s uniform does not make one a soldier. Once he is made a soldier he is then able to wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks him as a soldier. Putting on a judge’s robe does not, in itself, make anyone a “judge.” But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on “judicial robes” and thus declare his qualifications. So too with being baptized the Christian puts on robes for which he has previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christian attire, spiritually speaking, is not what makes one a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it. If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian, then he becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what he is not. You must be careful to not distort passages of scripture and then patch them together to create a your own gospel plan.

In Truth and in Love,

Dan

Perhaps Jay can teach that because of 1 Pet. 3:21 which says that “immersion doth also now save us” and because Jay will use all of the Bible on the topic of salvation rather than just one or two verses that support whatever it is he wants to believe when taken out of context? Romans 10:9 does not teach that confession and faith only save, no more than 1 Pet. 3:21 says that immersion alone will save.

Glenn, if you keep reading through Romans 10:10 instead of stopping with just verse 9 you will see that: “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” Where faith and confession lead unto salvation, it is immersion that puts us into Christ where salvation is found. (Rom. 6:3-4; Gal. 3:26-27)

In Truth and Love,

Ernie

2. I live in texas and my name is paden and thats all i have to say regarding my addentitie.

3. If yall are so worried about johny and find hima threat just go have a bible study or debate with him. Making a blog wont do much.

Our purpose is to point people to Christ, not a set of rules and laws that justify, but a justification found only in Christ, which produces Christian living — a relationship with God through his Word and a relationship with the members of His body.

Regrettably, Mr. Johnny Robertson may be a big focus, seeing he is the most far left Church of Christ preacher in our nation. His views are
the most legalist of any Church of Christ preacher, and he believes one can become an apostate over any matters not agreed upon – this means you must agree with him or be lost.

Our blog will take months to get off the ground, please pray that we can some how awaken Mr. Johnny Robertson to Gods grace.

http://religiousblogtalk.wordpress.com/

this is paden

Todd and I are progressive. Phil and Mac are conservative.

I’m neither for nor against instrumental music. My congregation worships a cappella, but there is nothing inherently sinful in the instrument.

Yes, I teach baptism as part of the plan of salvation.

I do not teach premillenialism.

I teach that Christians can fall from grace. The discussion here at GraceConversation is about how one falls from grace, not whether one can fall from grace.

An introduction to Mac Deaver may be found at http://graceconversation.com/2009/05/20/mac-deaver-joins-graceconversation/

An introduction to Phil Sanders and the other participants may be found at http://graceconversation.com/2009/03/25/announcing-graceconversationcom/

are you an elder at university church of Christ.

are you and your partner progressive and the other 2 conservative.

are you against instrumental music.

do you teach baptism in the plan of salvation

do you teach premalinialism

do you believe a child of God can fall from grace.

who are the other 2 people yall are discussing with.

are any of you preachers or have some kind of bible degree from a preaching school.