At the moment, I only have one question. If I claim to know something about the teachings in the Bible, does that make me arrogant for claiming such?

E.g. “I know what the word ‘gospel’ means.”

As I understand it, God wants us to gain knowledge and it is rather fruitless to attack someone, calling them arrogant, when they state that they know something and even state they believe others don’t know that something. It is a statement of what they believe to be fact, and then discussion commences to show that statement to be true or false.

What I’m saying is this: Saying something like, “…you seem to have all the answers. Why not inform the rest of us…” is not useful.

I’m going to make a lot of knowledge claims. I have been studying the Bible since I could read. I know a lot of things about it. There are a lot of things I don’t know about it, also. But just because I know something, doesn’t mean I’m a know it all, or have ALL of the answers. It also doesn’t mean that because I don’t know everything, I don’t know anything.

Whatever. I’m just musing out loud here.

Have a great day!

In Truth and Love,

Ernie

Well, sometimes I can be but not intentionally. And it has been years since I have bothered to set traps for the wary or unwary person. There is no profit{growth} in it.

So–

[1] Any one who is reading any of this would do well to question everything stated.

[2] It seems from your writings that your “view” of salvation is not found in scripture ergo– the thought that God could be saving sinners in a way that you are not considering.

Well, that does not get at it really–so let’s try it this way–

For the conservatives–your point seems to be that they do not grasp salvation which again raised the issue–that God could save sinners in a way that you are not seeing”.

Oh–you are not the easiest person to stay with either–

Richard GF

Ok, now I think is see what you are saying and agree.

You are also correct about salvation, or justification being far more than just forgiveness. Many think that when we come to Christ that only our “past” sins are forgiven. Christ fixed not only all of our sins, but “sin” as a condition.

If all Christ brings is forgiveness we are in bad shape because every one of us will sin again at some point and we are back at square one. Thank God not only are we forgiven but are also declared “righteous” and even “not guilty”, all on the basis of the life and dying of Jesus.

Royce

He twice says we “shall be saved” “much more.” “Much” intensifies “more,” and you’d think “more” would be sufficient to make a mere comparison. But Paul clearly wants to make a strong statement, and he chooses his words for that very purpose.

The challenge isn’t to make the language go away, but to conform our theology to Paul’s language.

I think the answer is found in chapter 5:1-5 –

Rom 5:1-5) Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

Vv. 1-2 summarize the gospel. But vv. 3-4 take us in a surprising direction. We have this good news, but thus who are justified may still find suffering in this life.

Paul then explains that because of the gospel, we can rejoice in even our sufferings, because they lead to growth in Christian graces, leading ultimately to hope.

Hope thus comes from being transformed in such a way that the trials of life make us stronger and even more likely to persevere to the end.

How does this remarkable thing happen? Because God has poured his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. That’s what makes it happen.

Now, Paul won’t fully explain how this works until chapter 8 (this whole sequence anticipates chapter 8). But it’s clear enough even this early in the letter that God’s love is in us through his indwelling Spirit — and this Spirit allows even suffering to lead to hope.

Now, it’s only hope because we are confident of the outcome. This confidence comes not from our own strength or merit, but the assurance of God’s love within us — which gives us strength.

Rom 5:6) You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Paul now looks back to how we were before we were saved. We were “powerless.” Why “powerless”? Because we didn’t possess the Spirit.

(Rom 5:7) Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

“Might possibly dare” is redundant in the Greek, too. Paul begins a series of repetitions to emphasize his point. God has done a remarkable thing in Christ, because Christ died for the unrighteous.

The point is how utterly unmerited our initial salvation was.

(Rom 5:8) But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

The intensity of God’s love is therefore shown by Christ’s willingness to die for sinners, the ungodly, the not-righteousness, and even enemies of God.

(Rom 5:9-10) Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

“Justified” and “reconciled” are past tense. It’s already happened. We didn’t deserve and we had no reason to expect them, but they happened.

As reconciled people, and in God’s eyes, no longer sinners, no longer ungodly, but righteous and even friends of Gods — indeed, his children — the salvation should be that much more assured.

We had no right to expect to be saved before, but now we are family. Indeed, we’ve been incorporated into Christ himself (c. 6 will explain this).

If by “saved” Paul means “forgiven,” then it’s hard to see how we can be “much more” forgiven. And the Churches of Christ, and evangelicalism in general, have always emphasized personal forgiveness to the near exclusion of all other blessings of salvation.

In this case, we can see from the immediate context — and the grammar — at least some of what Paul has in mind. He speaks in the future tense. He’s speaking our being saved at the Judgment, not being forgiven right now.

And this, of course, is the direction of vv. 1-5, where he speaks of our hope not disappointing us, that is, of our not failing to make it to heaven. “Hope” looks to the future (8:24).

Therefore, Paul is saying (at least in part) that we are more likely to persevere and be saved in the end today than we were when we were first saved.

Why is this? Because we have the Spirit. We received the Spirit when we were saved, and the Spirit empowers us to persevere. The Spirit turns suffering into hope.

But it’s more than that. We also have had time for the Spirit to work within us, to circumcise our hearts, to pour God’s love evermore into us. We are more and more like Jesus than when we began.

The journey can be hard, but it has its rewards. I can look at my newborn baby and delight in the birth and the expectations, but I can look at my 18 year old son and see my values imprinted on him. 18 years later he is much more able to make it to the end in good shape.

Paul’s point is that we should not see our Christian lives as beginning in perfection and then being a struggle just to keep our noses above water. We shouldn’t look back on our conversion as when we were the very closest to God!

Rather, our journey is not from God but both with God and toward God. We grow in God because God circumcises our hearts with his Spirit and we follow the Spirit’s leading.

Therefore, we are much more saved because we are much closer to the goal — not because death is nearer, but because we are nearer to God already.

The assurance is not in our own merit but in seeing God’s work within us — and if God is willing to work with us this way, surely he will work in us to finish the course!

We skip to c. 8 –

(Rom 8:17-18) Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

Paul again associates present sufferings with assurance of salvation (we don’t preach this much, do we?) But the end is not coming to glory — it’s the glory that is already within us being revealed.

(Rom 8:28) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

And Paul speaks of God’s care for those who are his. We don’t have to make it on our own. God works in countless ways to help us make it to the end.

And so — who is more saved? The newly born Christian or the Christian who has walked with God for decades?

We tend to think the experienced Christian may have many unrepented sins charged to his account and so be less saved than the one just baptized. Paul says you’re more saved when, by the Spirit, God has built your character and drawn you more deeply into the love of God. And I have to figure that Paul knows.

Rom: 5:8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

I’m sorry, maybe if I had that “doctorate in theology.” ?
1 Cor: 3:19: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

You can’t be more saved in the same way you can’t be more born. Those who are born again are born again.

I have two grand daughters who are adopted. (One of the pictures given in the Bible to describe our relationship to God)

Before their parents knew anything about them other than that they were girls, one Mexican and one bi racial, they loved them and took the necessary steps to complete the adoption process. They were fully daughters and can’t be more daughters than at the very first.

But since they have entered that relationship, “How much more” is their well being looked after? “How much more” is their place in the family cherished? Because their parents are not God, they are even loved more now than at the first.

Paul is making a contrast. If while we were enemies Christ reconciled us to the Father, “How much more” can we expect the salvation to be completed since we are sons?
“How much more” fully can we live by His life?

God loves sinners but those who are in his family he loves like he loves Jesus.(John 17:23) The destiny of every son is that he will be saved from the wrath of God in the end.

Thanks for your time,
Royce