Many of us believe EVERYTHING Jesus taught — including his teaching on apostasy. Your consistently-stated position denies the very existence of apostasy, and you suggest that the position you extrapolate from Scripture offers greater security than the position extrapolated by our “conservative” brethren. I cannot for the life of me see the practical difference where security is concerned.

The “conservatives” believe that while a person might be truly named a Christian, only God reallyknows whether they are saved.

Your position says that while a person may believe themselves a Christian, they might at any point “fall off the wagon” (so to speak) and discover they were never a Christian at all!

Neither position offers any assurance to me, right now. Mac and Phil might say, “Nick, maybe you’re saved. Maybe you’re not. Only God knows.” You might say, “Nick, maybe you’re a true believer. Maybe you’re not. Only God knows.”

I believe you’ve read enough of my writing at Fumbling and in comments around the blogosphere to know I’m no “conservative.” I see no security in either position (either the conservative position currently being defended or the position proposed by Royce and a couple of other brave souls). I look forward to Jay and Todd’s position.

My question for the sovereignty brethren, and/or the “God’s promises can never fade” brethren, is much like Tom Cruise’s question for Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men:

If “God wills that all people come to repentance, and God’s will is always done, why aren’t all people repentant?”

Please accept my apologies if I have given the impression you are outside of any explicit or implied rule of debate. You are well within any guidelines.

I may be over reacting to the standard debate tactics that are happening. I think the progressives are declaring a bigger gap than actually exists, at least on the repentance and apostasy issue.

Some of the initial posted comments gave me the impression that people were not filtering out tactics from substance, but later comments seem to indicate many are. That’s a good thing.

If I’m using means of persuasion that are illegitimate, what are they?

There is a difference between advising a convert of the cost of discipleship and demanding that a potential convert have the right position on the issues as a condition to baptism. I am quite confident that the Phillipian jailer understood the cost — his teachers had just been in prison because of their faith. I doubt seriously that he’d been instructed on all “pure positive” commands in the New Testament before his baptism.

Oral debaters are also skilled at doing the same thing. Mac has done the same thing here as well.

You said, “The idea that non Christians should be taught Christian disciplines before they trust Christ is the oddest thing I can imagine. There is not a hint in Scripture to support such nonsense.”

Jesus clearly taught in Luke 14:26-33 that we must “count the costs” before following him. We can debate exactly what it precisely means, but if we aren’t helping people understand the Christian life and it’s impact on the person prior to becoming a Christian we aren’t following Jesus.

I don’t want to use the word ‘disingenuous’. Jay is well studied and I assume has good intentions. My guess is he is so accustomed to using multiple means of persuasion in his profession that he believes he is legitimate.

I believe I can see through it.

At the moment, I don’t see any winners. I not moved by either side at the moment.

I do appreciate the opportunity to view and comment on the dialogue.

It is almost like he is no more important in these discussions than Peter or Paul.”

If Jesus is to be believed, that must include believing what His apostles said. After all, one of Jesus’ promises to the apostles was to stand behind their words.

If we think Jesus was wrong to trust Peter and Paul to speak for Him, it’s not the apostles we’re criticizing.

Jesus trusts them. Why can’t we?

It is almost like he is no more important in these discussions than Peter or Paul.

This is a fact! You will not discover God’s truth by beginning with church of Christ dogma, or your designer theology, and working backwards with it as your foundation of faith.

God has made the truth about what He has done to set sinners right with himself that even little children can understand it. No one is so blind as those who refuse to see.

Royce