If/when you get to heaven what percent of the “glory” will you ascribe to yourself… and how much to Jesus Christ? THINK ABOUT IT!

Your Church of Christ theology is devoid of any understanding of a person’s state before they are saved.

Ernie, until we are made “alive in Christ” we are DEAD….DEAD! How, my friend, do you suppose one can participate in that state?

One of the most significant phrased in scripture (which you miss)is in Ephesians where it says, “But God being rich in mercy…..because of his great love…”

It does not say, “But Erin, being godly and ….”

God is omnipotent. If it is His will to keep a person from falling then He certainly has the ability. The point is HOW does He keep a person from falling and is that in spite of the choices the person makes.

“Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy…”Jude 1:25 [24 - ELJ]

IN CONTEXT Jude 1:24 is about God keeping those who want to be kept. Vs. 20-21 has the admonition to “keep yourselves in the love of God” through prayer and constant study. Jude 1:24 does not contradict James 5:19-20.

Ernie, Quoting (directly)from Galatians 3:3-4, “Let me ask you this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”

First off, this “Spirit” should be lower case. It’s a reference to having the spirit or mind of Christ or being focused on spiritual things rather than physical. This passage has nothing to do with a person having the Holy Spirit.

Second, Galations 3 (and 4) are a microcosm of the book of Romans. “The law” is the law of Moses (as seen in vs. 24-25) and faith is a reference to being saved outside of the law of Moses. It is a specific kind of faith. You must keep things in proper context.

Ernie, Obviously, you are smart, earnest, and committed. I cannot help but wonder why it has not dawned on you that …for all that Christ did – it is still up to your efforts to finally be “perfected in the flesh,” – saved. That your gift of “eternal life” is really provisional, at best.

Lies, false doctrines don’t “dawn” on me. God said eternal life is conditional. God said that I must act to receive the gift of His Son’s sacrifice on the cross. I believe Him. That’s all there is to it.

Just curious, is Ernest Laurence Sr. an elder in the Church of Christ?

He is not at this time, but he was for a number of years.

Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention in my last rebuttal, that passage that you keep referring to about Jesus not loosing any that the Father gave Him? That passage is John 6 and as usual, you have not provided any context so you interpret it within the Calvinist paradigm instead of the context it was in. Look at John 17. Those that the Father gave Jesus were the Apostles and in fact one of those that the Father gave Jesus was lost as prophesied, Judas.

You must use context. That’s the main reason I’m going through the whole book of Romans, to give context to the original passages you and Dan made your arguments from.

In Truth and Love,

Ernie

~~~~Thanks for talking to me instead of rudely talking about me as if I’m not here.~~~~

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I was just telling it like it is. I clearly proved you wrong and you can’t admit that you are are wrong. At least I didn’t call you illogical, self serving, lazy, a viper and a wolf. This is what you called Glenn in a previous response. That was rude.

~~~~Problems with your interpretation, Dan: 1. John’s audience is Christians. (we, we, we)~~~~

There are no problems with my interpretation. Even though John is addressing Christians, that does not mean that everyone in the audience must be a Christian. Having no fellowship with God, walking in darkness, not practicing the truth (verse 6) does not describe a Christian. John says that even though such people “claim” to have fellowship with God, they are liars. Their walking in darkness refuted such claims. A genuine Christian walks habitually in the light (truth and holiness), not in darkness (falsehood and sin). One who walks in the light is manifesting his saved condition and the blood of Christ cleanses them from all sin. John is exposing these wolves in sheep’s clothing. John is addressing Christians in 1 John 2:19 when he states, “They went out FROM US, but they were NOT OF US; for IF (notice the word if) they had been OF US (how would it have been demonstrated), they would have CONTINUED WITH US; but they went out that they might be MADE MANIFEST, that NONE OF THEM WERE OF US.” Just because John is writing to Christians does not mean that everyone who claims to be a Christian in the group really is. In 1 John 3:10, “In this the….children of the devil are MANIFEST: Whoever does not PRACTICE righteousness is not of God. See the contrast? Does not PRACTICE righteousness (1 John 3:10). Does not PRACTICE the truth (1 John 1:6). I’ve heard Pastors before address a congregation as, “good morning brothers and sisters in Christ.” Does this mean that every single person in that congregation on that particular Sunday morning must be a Christian? Man cannot see the heart and know for sure that every “professing” Christian really is a genuine Christian. John knows that there are imposters.

~~~~2. John’s statements are conditional (If we walk, then the blood covers us) meaning that if the condition is not met, then the consequent is not true.~~~~

So you are saying that the blood does not cover us “until” we walk in the light “enough” after we are saved through faith? Acts 10:43 says that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM shall receive REMISSION OF SINS, but you say NO, not until you continue to walk in the light “enough” throughout your life, then the blood of Christ cleanses you from all sin and you become or remain saved. Genuine Christians are not in darkness, but are only in the light (2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8; Colossians 1:12,13). One who walks in the light is manifesting his saved condition and the blood of Christ cleanses them from all sin. We cannot even begin to walk in the light until we are in the light after we are saved through faith (Acts 26:18). You are confused by the word “if”. Notice that Colossians 1:23 says “if” indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard… You would naturally understand that to mean that faith + if = salvation. But actually, salvation is evidenced by continuing in the faith and not being moved from the hope held out in the gospel, not the cause. The people who fail to continue in the faith and lose hope in the gospel demonstrate that they “believed in vain” (did not truly believe) in the first place (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). This verse does not teach that we are saved now because of a future act after salvation. Present salvation cannot be based upon acts that come after salvation. Events after salvation can only prove or demonstrate the reality of what was assumed. Those who persevere have been saved. Those who do not persevere have not been saved. If one does not persevere (hold fast), then he was not made a partaker of Christ. If he perseveres, he was (in fact) previously made a partaker of Christ.

~~~~3. Eph. 5:8 has the admonition to walk in the light, which is an irrelevant command if they are already walking in the light and cannot do anything else. None of those passages you site have the word “only” in them, but you seem to have major problems inserting that word all over the place.~~~~

Ephesians 5:8 says, “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.” Notice that this verse does not say, “you were once in the light, but now you quit walking in the light and have returned to darkness.” It also does not say to walk as children of light or else! There is nothing wrong with Paul’s admonition to walk as children of light. This does not mean that they have not been walking as children of light at all. Christians do not perfectly walk as children of light, but at the same time it would be impossible for a Christian to “never” walk as a child of light if they are truly light in the Lord. None of these passages that you cite are adding additional requirements to become or remain saved. You seem to have major problems inserting “plus works” to salvation through faith all over the place. Once we place our faith in Christ as the “only” means of our salvation, we are saved (Ephesians 2:8,9). We are not saved by the “kind” of faith that “only” claims to be genuine, but demonstrates by the lack of good works that it’s not (James 2:14-24). *Perfect harmony.* In Titus 3:8 we see that those who have believed in God should be careful to “maintain good works.” These things are good and profitable to men. We see here an admonition to maintain good works. This does not mean these people have not maintained good works at all. Also, Titus 3:8 does not say to maintain good works in order to maintain your salvation either, as you would assume.

~~~~Except that its the same “we” of verse 7. John’s audience is Christians. What your point here does is imply that one cannot know for certain if they are saved, but 1 John 5:13 teaches that we can know.~~~~

The “we” of verse 6 (those who say they have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, lie and do not practice the truth) are not the same “we” of verse 7 (who walk in the Light and have fellowship with one another, and receive cleansing us from all sin). According to you, since John is addressing Christians, everyone who is listening must be a genuine Christian and the “we” of verse 6 are Christians. My point does not imply that one cannot know for certain if they are saved. I know for certain that I BELIEVE and I KNOW for certain that I have eternal life (1 John 5:13). Praise God!

~~~~Furthermore, James 5:19-20 says: – Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James is talking to those he knows are brethren (Christians) by divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit (unless you want to claim that the Holy Spirit doesn’t really know who are brethren). In speaking to these Christians he says:~~~~

Interpreting this passage to mean that a genuine Christian can lose their salvation brings us to some pretty contradictory conclusions and some wild speculation. If this does mean you could lose your salvation by sinning, which sin(s)? Hebrews 6:4-6 reads, For [it is] IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. If this passage is teaching that a genuine Christian can actually “lose their salvation,” (as you would teach) notice that it says it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again unto repentance. James 5:20 leaves open the possibility of converting the sinner from the error of his way. James 5:19,20 does not mention that there is no second chance for such a person, which you say is a Christian who lost his salvation, then repented and gained it back.

~~~~“if any of you” – (that is if any Christian)~~~~

There are different interpretations to this passage of scripture. Your argument, of course, is that the one who did err from the truth is a genuine Christian who will lose his salvation if he is not converted from “the error of his way.” Notice how this “err from the truth” is not specifically mentioned which leads to a vague conclusion. Another argument is that this one who has err from the truth is a “professing” Christian, whose faith is not genuine and he will experience eternal death if he is not converted unto salvation. Yet another argument is that this one who has err from the truth is a genuine Christian who needs to be converted from “the error of his way” (not converted to salvation) or else experience premature physical death. This third interpretation supports the argument that the word soul (Gr psyche) may mean “life,” and that the clause would be taken as a warning that backsliding may end in physical death (1 John 5:16). Your interpretation of (James 5:19,20) is certainly not in harmony with (Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-39). These other two interpretations are in harmony with the rest of scripture. The wanderer is either a “professing” Christian, whose faith is not genuine (Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Peter 2:20-22), or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored. For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the “second death” (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).

~~~~“do err from the truth” (go astray – which you can’t do if you are already astray)~~~~

A Christian can certainly err from the truth or be misled from the truth. This does not mean lose salvaltion. This person who is wandering from the “truth” could be demonstrating that his present conduct is no longer consistent with his former profession of faith. Maybe he is a Christian only in an outward sense. James and even ourselves can’t peek into heaven and see if this person’s name is in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Whether the “brethren” of James 5:19 are the writer’s brethren in the racial sense or in an evangelical sense is not agreed upon by all Christians. Whether he is speaking here of a backslidden Christian or a lost sinner is a question concerning which Christian’s differ. In either case, the passage is somewhat obscure and you never want to build a theology on obscure passages. You must always interpret the less clear passages in light of the clear ones. Paul in Ephesians makes it crystal clear that once we BELIEVE the gospel, we are sealed IN HIM UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30). Notice it does not say that we are sealed until the day that we error from the truth. For those who don’t BELIEVE, the gospel is HID from them (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). 2 Corinthians 1:21,22 reads: “Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, GUARANTEEING WHAT IS TO COME.” AMEN! An unbeliever does not understand this truth because he has not been sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit and became a new creation in Christ. The unbeliever is trying to understand spiritual truths using his natural fleshly mind (1 Corinthians 2:14). Unbelievers would automatically agree with your argument.

~~~~“and one convert him” – someone causes the Christian who went astray to repent “…he that converteth the sinner” – a Christian has become a sinner again~~~~

Become a sinner again? At what point does a Christian never sin again? Convert does not mean convert someone to salvation all over again.

~~~~It occurs also in 1 Peter 4:8, where it clearly means the sins of others covered by love as a veil thrown over them. The saying appears also in Proverbs 10:12: “Hatred stirs up strife, but love hides all transgressions”~~~~

Where love abounds, offenses are frequently overlooked and quickly forgotten. This is the sense in which sins are covered by love as a veil thrown over them. This does mean that our sins are not covered by the blood of Christ until we produce enough love.

~~~~“shall save a soul from death” – this Christian who has gone astray can have their SOUL saved from DEATH~~~~

SOUL as you see here is translated from the greek word psyche. Psyche in the New Testament is often translated as life, but its meaning is in the totality of the self as a living, conscious person. It can mean both life and person. In Matthew 20:28 it says: “just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” The word “life” in this verse was translated from the greek word “psyche”. We obviously know that Jesus Christ did not give up his eternal soul. From this, we can then think of this verse in this manner “he will save a life from death” or “he will save a person from death.” So your argument that this is truly a Christian that has gone astray and can have their soul saved from eternal death in the lake of fire is not in harmony with the rest of scripture and is inconclusive. The words “shall save” in James 5:20 is the same greek words translated for “shall save” in James 5:15: “And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. James used this term “save” in James 5:15 to describe physical restoration from illness.

~~~~“and shall hide a multitude of sins” – these sins of this Christian who had gone astray were not being covered by the blood of Christ any longer, but once they had been turned back to the path of light, that large number of sins was covered (hid) once more.~~~~

The word “cover” does not necessarily mean covered by the blood of Christ in scripture. 1 Peter 4:8 and Proverbs 10:12 are not using this word in the sense of being covered by the blood of Christ at conversion when we receive salvation. Love covers over sins. Love forgives again and again. Believers are both saints and sinners (Paul called himself the foremost of sinners in 1 Tim. 1:15, and James wrote to some of his readers in in 3:8, “cleanse your hands, you sinners”). Positionally, we are saints because we have received Christ’s imputed righteousness when we BELIEVED (Romans 4:4-6). Practically though, we are still sinners.

~~~~Yes, yes, you are all about the outward appearance. I know.~~~~

No, I am all about SHOWING the reality of the faith “professed” by the individual (James 2:18) and DEMONSTRATING that the faith CLAIMED (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. This is exactly what James is all about. You are all about salvation “by works.” You confuse the fruit of salvation (good works) with the root of salvation (faith in Christ alone for salvation).

~~~~Hmmm, so are you saying that according to this verse that from the moment you are a Christian you can’t sin at all? Interesting.~~~~

That is absolutely NOT what I am saying. It’s interesting how you didn’t pay attention to what I said. 1 John 3:9 says “Whoever has been born of God does not sin,” (can’t consistently habitually live in sin). This does not mean that a Christian cannot sin at all. According to you, a Christian can consistently habitually live in sin and lose their salvation in contradiction to 1 John 3:9. A casual reading of 1 John 3:9 without understanding the Greek has lead some people to believe that John is saying that once we become born again, we never sin again. Your casual approach to reading 1 John 1:6-7 and James 5:19-20 has led you into the error of believing that salvation is by works and is also maintained by works.

Glenn really summed it up when he said, “All the tweaking Dan, myself, and others have tried drives you deeper into your works/self-righteous system. You elevate your own performance (works) above the finished work of Jesus Christ. You are still trying to reconcile yourself…to God.” You have made some very good points brother Glenn!

In Truth and in Love,

Dan

“Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy…”Jude 1:25

Ernie, Quoting (directly)from Galatians 3:3-4, “Let me ask you this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”

Ernie, Obviously, you are smart, earnest, and committed. I cannot help but wonder why it has not dawned on you that …for all that Christ did – it is still up to your efforts to finally be “perfected in the flesh,” – saved. That your gift of “eternal life” is really provisional, at best.

Just curious, is Ernest Laurence Sr. an elder in the Church of Christ?

Grace and Peace,

Last week I fell from grace zero times. It’s not as easy as you believe I believe it is. Falling from grace requires turning your back on God to walk in darkness again. I haven’t done that in a long time.

In Truth and Love,

Ernie

Question: Why…would ANYONE …get a “reward” for “saving” someone else?? Salvation is …OF THE LORD. Don’t you get that, Ernie?

Christ said it well, “NO ONE will come to me EXCEPT the Father draws them…and ALL the Father gives me, I will lose NOT ONE.”How many will Christ lose, Ernie?

How many instances last week did you “fall from grace.”