Comments on: Where Things Stand

By: Gary Cummings

Gary Cummings — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:46:35 +0000

Laymond,
I never heard of Roderick C. Meredith of the LCOG. I have had a little contact with the Non-denominational COG. Give Tabor’s book THE JESUS DYNASTY a fair read and let me know what you think. It seems he has rejected too much of the Christian faith for me.Yeah, will keep on working 3 days a month as an RN, as that is all Medicare will let me do till I am 66. I will try to handle it though. I get a lot of reading and crossword puzzles done while the IVIG is running. Very relaxing really, though the IVIG is pretty nasty stuff.
I think God found me in 1964, though I have wandered in circles a few times. He keep me daily with Him. I have a really good friend who is an RN and a JW as well. She is a delightful person. I no longer think they have horns like the Mormons-those bunch of darm polytheists!

By: laymond

laymond — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:16:33 +0000

Gary, the reason I asked if you knew that Roderick C. Meredith was the leader of LCOG, My last name is also Meredith I was raised until the age of 15 at Mountain View Arkansas, ( just a few miles south of Joplin Missouri) before we moved to the Great state of Texas. We were distant kin My dad and his dad were second or third cousins, if you call that kin. I actually had the opportunity to attend Armstrong’s college, but declined. Seems you were a man of medicine, My wife, My daughter and my son all have nursing degrees,although my wife and son work in a hospital pharmacy. My son’s only daughter is attending college now for her degree. I worked in the oilfield so I needed a lot of nursing
I wish you well with both your retirement and your search for God, may God bless. brother in Christ Laymond E. Meredith

By: Gary Cummings

Gary Cummings — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:30:56 +0000

Laymond,

Right now, since Aug 1,2008, we have not been attending one church on a regular basis. In fact, I made it a point not to attend any church for one year-a sabbatical from church going. There for a while(prior to the Sabbatical) we attended a Wesleyan Church for about 6 months, as I am somewhat of a “Holiness” believer. Faith and I even went to a non-denominational Church of God, which is a Holiness-restoration Church from the 1800′s. It took the route of restoration, much like Stone and Campbell, but instead of “Restoration and unity”, which they saw as devisive, they chose “Holiness and unity”. One of their mottos, which I like is “Salvation makes you a member”. They have this on their church sign, and that impressed me a lot. The local one near our house has a woman pastor, but that does not bother me as it once did. I guess what bothered me were the display of the US flag in the building by the pulpit, and their acceptance of militarism. Their original founder-David Warner was a great man of God and a Christian pacifist. Since then, as in the COC, a lot of water and many wars have gone under the bridge, and they (for the most part) have disavowed their original pacifism. Stone and A. Campbell both were pacifists (Campbell actually opposed the 1848 Mexican-American War in the House of Virginia delegates. He was one of those antiwar preachers. Too bad he and Stone and Lipscomb were not around during the Vietnam War.)
So, on August 1, or the first Sunday in August, Faith and I will return to the visible Church. I really can’t day I am any wiser. Oh yes, since Jan of this year,we did attend a church meeting about 6 times: Russian Orthodox (acapella music!), Orthodox Presbyterian, Methodist-once or twice (great communion service with Christian bluegrass banjos in the background, and on Easter-at a local Mennonite Church. Great worship on Easter and a great sermon by a “lawyer turned preacher”. Humm, Jay are you listening?

Anyway, I am ending my first week of retirement at the age of 62 and 4 months. I will work 3 days a month doing specialty IV infusion, and a couple of part time home nursing visits to admit people to service or wound care. So 3 or 4 days a months is the max Medicare will allow me to work until I am 66. So the next few years, I am pondering a new direction. Trying to preach at a non-denominational church (I did that for a while), get certified through CPE as a hospital chaplain or start an MA in American history, or maybe all three. We did go to houses churches for a long time, and there are a lot of limitations there. So I am open to a new leading from God.

By: Gary Cummings

Gary Cummings — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:56:00 +0000

Actually, when I mentioned the error of Marcion, I meant Arius/ Arius is the first great heretic to deny the divinity and pre-existence of Jesus Christ. He taught that Jesus was only a man-a created being, and not eternal. He taught that there was a time when Jesus did not exist. I see this a lot in some of the COC writings.

Marcion is another heretic, who denied the God of the OT, and had a truncated NT. He is like some COCers who deny the OT as having anything tho say to Christians.

By: laymond

laymond — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:48:35 +0000

Gary, what church if any do you attend now? just curious. and what finally won you over to this triune God?
I have never read James Tabor, but he and I see the bible in much the same way, As for the JW’s they would tell you we don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things, most as a matter of fact, I have sat at my home either on the front porch or my living room many hours discussing and comparing their belief and mine. I have been invited to speak at their meetings, but never have.I have been invited to join their lodge, but have pointed out why I, in all good conscience could not. and they accepted my decision without saying I was bound for hell, as a matter of fact the last to come was one of the leaders, when he left he said a most complementary , thing to me from a JW. He said “you just might be one of the 144,000″ I know that decision is up to Jesus, but I thanked him anyway.
Do you know who is the leader of the “Living Church of God” Yep I have talked to him.

By: laymond

laymond — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 01:40:16 +0000

Randy said “Actually, I do not believe in any heirarchy within the Trinity.”

In other words you don’t believe in what Jesus said , “neither came I of myself, but he sent me.”

well I do.

By: laymond

laymond — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 01:32:16 +0000

I believe Jesus did pre-exist his earthly birth, why do I believe that? Because it is written in the bible, just like everything else I have stated I believe in.

Col :1:12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of HIS DEAR SON:
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15: Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE:
16: FOR BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM , and for him: ( vs. 16 is speaking of God, not Jesus (in my opinion) of being the creator of all things,even in heaven.)

Rom :8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be THE FIRSTBORN among many brethren.

Col: 1:18: And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN from the dead; that in all things he might have the PREEMINENCE.

Heb :12:23: To the general assembly and church of the FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Rv :1:5: And from Jesus Christ, who is THE FAITHFUL WITNESS,————

Rv :3:14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS, the beginning of THE CREATION OF GOD;

By: Gary Cummings

Gary Cummings — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:19:51 +0000

Sorry about my bad typing in my last post. I just woke up from a retirement nap.

By: Gary Cummings

Gary Cummings — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:17:23 +0000

Royce,
I for one do not believe in 3 Gods. I believe in one God: Yahweh. Yahweh exists as as co-equal and co-eternal Trinity. The is one God is: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All of the persons of the Trinity are pr-existent and non-created. Francis Schaeffer, a great mind and sharp and somewhat flawed theologian wrote a great case for God as Trinity. He wrote that (to the best of my memory) that God exists as Trinity as it is ontologically necessary. This means that God was all sufficient in the community of the Trinity as Father, Son, and Spirit before the creation of all things. To take either the Son or the Spirit out of the Godhead, would mean that God was not sufficient within Himself, and needed the creation, including man to fill Himself up. Now the Bible, as I understand and believe, teaches that God is the Father is pre-existent, as is the Son and the Holy Spirit. To say that there was a time when Jesus did not exist is to assert the error of Marcion of the early centuries and the Jehovah Witnesses of a later age. The Christology of Laymond is identical to that of the JW faith. I am not saying this disparagingly, but as a fact.
COC Christological ambivalence has led to the errors of two Church of Christ (ex) ministers and Bible teachers: Robert Brent Graves who believe in the Modalist teaching that there is only one God who is no the Trinity. This one God-Yahweh became another mode called Jesus. The Holy Spirit is either the third mode (as some believe) or just the divine power of Jesus. This is the teaching of the “Oneness Pentecostals”. This man was educated at Abilene and is a very fine person and excellent Greek teacher teacher. Bacl in the late 60′s, he and James Tabor joined the Worldwide Church of God- the Armstrong Church, as Armstrong had all the answers. They both taught at Ambassador College. Then they found out some of the heresies of Armstrongism and came back to ACU to complete their Master degrees. I met Brent in 1970, we became friends and he introduced me to the world of Modalism, and I was affected by that for about 20 years (though I wavered back and forth from that to the Trinity). Then I met James Tabor, who is world famous now for his many books including THE JESUS DYNASTY. James has rejected: the divinity of Jesus, and claims he was one of two Messiahs (John the Baptist was the other), and the inspiration of most of the New Testament, especially anything written by John and Paul. He tends to view Paul as the ultimate perverter of the true teaching of Jesus. Also, Tabor is lending some credence to the “Lost Tomb of Jesus” theory. Tabor does not believe in the Virgin birth of Jesus, and surmisez that Pantera, a Roman soldier or another man may be the biological father of Jesus. Tabor has struck it big with his many books, as he is an excellent writer, thinker, and scholar. But in the end, he is wrong and damned for rejecting the Jesus of the Bible as God’s Son who atoned for our sins at Calvary and bodily rose from the dead. Tabor firmly firmly rejects the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

So we can see where Sommerite COC mischief can lead. This is not always the case. But it has produced a lot of brilliant scholars with great rationalistic minds, who miss it all: the Biblical revelation of God as revealed in the life and ministry of Jesus Christ.

By: Gary Cummings

Gary Cummings — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:45:34 +0000

Laymond,
I am the last person to claim all knowledge, I just know in part. When I was younger I used to jump on what I perceived as facts like a duck on the proverbial junebug, and then claim to know that fact absolutely. Now, after many years of being a Christian (not all of them great) and changing or growing in my theological understanding a few times, I prefer the word “I believe”. This allows for more growth and more light from God’s Word, as now I realize that all knowledge held by anybody is partial at best. I apply the tools of Bible study I hope in a rational and spiritual way, letting the Holy Spirit guide me to the best understanding my finite mind is capable of, then allowing for more growth and light from God the Holy Spirit.
I apologize to any and all for giving the idea that I am superior to anyone here. That is not the case. I am a sinner saved by grace striving to perceive God’s Word through diligent Bible Study through the illumination of the Holy Spirit. I pray for the Living Word to lead me in understanding His Written Word-the Bible.