Royce

…I am curious to how many actually have experienced the indwelling of the Spirit to where they were exhibiting the gifts of the Spirit.

Having the indwelling Spirit and exhibiting miraculous gifts are two different things. The indwelling Spirit can have an effect without making a dramatic display.

Joh 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

There was once unity until “progressives” came along pushing “new doctrines” and bringing division to the Body of Christ.

120 years ago it was Daniel Sommer and his conservative allies who pronounced the Address and Declaration, declaring that churches with a paid preacher were not Christian for that reason… and churches that raise funds by bake sales and the like are not Christian for that reason… and similarly for having a choir, for supporting a missionary society, for supporting preacher colleges… and yes, even for instrumental music. It wasn’t the progressives who declared the split.

I agree that progressives introduced the practices that conservatives used as the reason for the split. Where those practices caused a split in a local congregation, that was wrong. They should have followed Paul’s example not to eat meat, nor drink wine, nor do anything else that would cause a brother to stumble. But where the congregation as a whole agreed with the practice, introducing the practice was not divisive. The divisiveness came from conservatives in other places who felt the need to exercise judgment over distant congregations. Claiming to believe in autonomy, they violated autonomy for the sake of eradicating disagreement between congregations.

It’s easy to pigeon hole, but just keep in mind that I’ve never suggested that we shouldn’t, at times, remove fellowship with someone who’s a false teacher or immoral. I have some progressive and conservative tendencies. I’m not one or the other—at least in my opinion. : ) I try to be faithful to God without respect to political pressure, social pressure, etc., though I’m terribly imperfect.

For instance, the stuff of Galatians is deadly. It leaves people dependent on the flesh for justification. Paul is clear about the fact that those who promote such a thing and accept such a thing have fallen from grace. When we fail to teach grace, the work of the Spirit in the transformation of our lives (e.g., ro. 8), or teach it in such a way that we are still self reliant, we promote the same error Paul warned about.

Because of smoke and mirrors it can be really hard to pin someone down who is promoting self-justification. For me, however, I just look at the product of the teaching. I don’t care what GM says about the quality of its company—what matters to me is whether or not their car will get me to town and back (therefore, I own three Hondas!). If the gospel that’s being taught is leaving people rather joyless and lacking peace (inner and outer), if it’s generated a people who can articulate the 5 steps, give sophisiticated answers about why IM is wrong, who know all about Nadab and Abihu but nothing of Eleazar and Ithamar, a people who have yet to get their imaginations around Ro. 8.18f and the liberation of all creation (not just the humans)—the very hope Paul says we’re saved in; if it’s creating a people who know more about how to divide than to add, then I know it isn’t the gospel Jesus preached.

So, the proof is in the pudding (I say again). What sort of disciples are we making? If the conservatives are generating disciples who rely to much on the self and obsess over petty issues, then are the progressives any better if the gospel they’re teaching generates vampire Christians, who suck Jesus blood-dry for forgiveness, but never get around to becoming like Him?

There’s too much room for error in our judgment of each other in a forum such as this, so I’ll refrain from such judgment. What indicates the result of a minister’s work in the kingdom, with a good deal more certitude than one’s capacity for debate, is the sort of disciples resulting from his teaching.

If we could all step out of ourselves and just take a look at our fruit, the result of our labor in the kingdom, then we might get some clarity as to what we’re actually teaching. If we’re making disciples of the church of Christ, we’d better make haste in repenting! If we’re making disciples who simply have an updated vocabulary and more modern worship style, who know all about Eleazar and Ithamar but have never heard of Nadab and Ibihu, who talk of the Spirit but bear none of His fruit, then we better make haste to repent.

I don’t look down on you, Josh. I don’t even know you, or hardly anything about what you believe, teach, etc. My words are a reflection of my experiences struggling against a mindset that insists on justification on the basis of social identity–church of Christness (the galatian problem). I’m not even sligthtly embarrased to say that it is a sinful reality. The alternative isn’t antinomianism—or at least it doesn’t have to be. Cheap grace is just cheap. It isn’t grace. Maybe, discussions like this can do something to bring balance to the churches of Christ.

As to the Spirit, I’ve been noted as a false teacher because I taught what the Bible says on the subject without trying to make the subject fit into Modernism’s categories. I don’t think you have to see it the same way I do in order for us to work together in fellowship. We need to be kind and patient. We’d part company if your belief led people to trust in themselves rather than Jesus. However, I’ve never received tit for tat, being described as a false teacher because I believe the Spirit of God dwells in us as per Ro. 8 and other explicit passages.

And in a debate with a brother in Chattanooga a few years ago, he stood on the platform, red faced, screaming at me in front of his congregation of a few hundred, saying—Yes, I believe you will lose your soul, and all those who follow you! Why did he feel that way? Essentially, because I ate food in the building. CENI was his weapon and a social identity as a sub category within the churches of Christ was his to defend and promote. And when baptizing hundreds while working with soldiers at Ft. Benning, it was determined by some that I couldn’t have been teaching the gospel. I must have been watering it down, it was supposed. Some good men from the community visited. They were troubled. They insisted that before I baptized anyone else, I give them a copy of “Why I’m a Member of the Churches of Christ,” and make sure they understood the material before baptizing.

Those are just snapshots to give you a sense of where I’m coming from.

I don’t have theories about the various movements within the churches of Christ. None of this is an academic exercise for me. I don’t look down on those who disagree. Before throwing in the towel by dropping out of ministry a year and half ago, I’d lived, in exquisite detail the struggle we’re engaged in relative to our identity. And there are countless other nameless men who’ve gone through the same sausage grinder. I just wish, for the sake of God’s glory, some of the differences could be resolved. Living together is difficult. Worldviews are clashing. The question is, who will we become?

To me there is such greatness in the freedom that comes through Christ. It’s like getting a gift for Christmas and never opening it, never to see what is possible. But if your current position is working for you, great!

I hear some hear believing in the indwelling of the Spirit but I am curious to how many actually have experienced the indwelling of the Spirit to where they were exhibiting thr gifts of the Spirit. Believing in it and having it are two entirely different things.

But that is also true of everyone who calls upon the name of Jesus and declares him as Lord.

It is the “progressives” who are the ones making the charge that “conservatives” are wrong on fellowship.

Ah, but you have missed the point.

This is a discussion of what makes one apostate and the implications of that for fellowship. The progressives are not accusing the conservatives of being apostate, and have not broken fellowship with the conservatives. It is the conservatives who have done those things. It is not the progressives, but the conservatives, who have been breaking fellowship for over a century.