Comments on: Talking Past Each Other

By: Glenn Dowling

Glenn Dowling — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:44:42 +0000

I line up with Charles McLean’s comments clearly stated in his last paragraph:

“It seems to me that if God is willing to accept the blood of Jesus as propitiation for sinful “acts and ommissions” of believers, then it is not unreasonable to think that He in like manner covers doctrinal errors for those who have faith in Christ.To that I say a heartly, “Amen!”

My fear is that some well meaning, committed Church of Christ leaders are teaching “perfection” as if we can improve on the work of Jesus Christ. From the point one receives Jesus Christ as their Savior there is no time in their life they will ever be more saved. Are their degrees of obedience more pleasing to God? – Yes. Are they any more saved? No. Otherwise, one is engaging in “self-righteousness” or Phariseeism. Surely, God cannot be pleased with that.

Isaiah 64:6 describes our “righteousness” as filthy rags. We are saved by the blood of Jesus

By: Ed Boggess

Ed Boggess — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 12:17:46 +0000

Ananias and Sapphira did something I would think twice before doing and presumably gave the lion’s share away. I would have patted them on the back, even if I thought they were holding a little back! God did not forbear! So I see myself as a poor judge in deciding such a question as this. Instead, I suppose I will try to encourage truth and discourage error of all kinds. As for forbearance, I think Lipscomb got it right when he said as long as a fellow showed evidence of trying to please God, whether his problem was moral or ignorance, he chose to forbear. After all, who know the heart of a man but the spirit of man within him?

By: Alan

Alan — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:35:24 +0000

Ed Boggess wrote:

You ask, does an IM practitioner have that goal? Everyone converted has that goal.

If Greg and Phil can make that statement, we will have made real progress. Then we could stop talking about progressives as if they were unwilling to submit to the authority of GOd. They are not unwilling.

By: Ed Boggess

Ed Boggess — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:06:13 +0000

You ask, does an IM practitioner have that goal? Everyone converted has that goal. Two differ. One believes the other’s practice goes beyond what is written. The first cannot conscientiously join in the practice and believes to that degree his brother is in error. To do otherwise is to betray his own discipleship, his efforts at following Jesus. Could one or the other be wrong? Of course. But to expect either to ignore their difference is simplistic.

By: Charles McLean

Charles McLean — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:21:23 +0000

And if our conformity to the likeness of Christ is a matter of right doing, then who of us is great enough to claim to be anywhere near the arrival point? If, rather, this is a matter of God working his will in us, then we find ourselves in the hands of his loving discipline, rather than finding ourselves in the dock, desperately trying to defend ourselves in the face of a pending death sentence from a holy God.

By: Charles McLean

Charles McLean — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:17:54 +0000

I think this is precisely the question, and I appreciate John Mark for stating it clearly. When we begin to try to quantify the discipline or the mercy of our own Father, we run into obstacles. One man says that nothing qualifies for “perpetual indulgence”, so I suppose that a believer who has borne bitterness against his doctrinal foes for 50 years and dies of apoplexy in the middle of a tirade is in danger of hell fire. Or are we speaking of our views about what constitutes sin, rather than our sins themselves? Are we saying that God will show us patience and mercy for our ongoing evil habits, so long as we acknowledge that, yep, that’s probably the wrong thing to do? Is it worse to spend my life with the “wrong view” on divorce, or to regularly practice refusing to love my neighbor?

Some seem to propose that God in his grace tolerates a certain level of sinful actions or omissions, which any honest man has to acknowledge are an ongoing issue with him. No one dies perfect, after all. But these same folks seem to offer that God will at some point draw the line and damn the person who refuses to acknowledge his “errant position” on MDR or baptism.

It seems to me that if God is willing to accept the blood of Jesus as propitiation for sinful “acts and ommissions” of believers, then it is not unreasonable to think that He in like manner covers doctrinal errors for those who have faith in Christ.

By: John Mark Hicks

John Mark Hicks — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:35:36 +0000

So, it seems to me, that the question becomes which errors will God perpetually indulge (thus calling us to forebear as well)and which will he not (thus calling us to conform to his own actions)?

By: Alan

Alan — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:39:49 +0000

So what merit is it to ask, “must we reach perfect . . .?” That should be the goal of every disciple.

We all agree that should be our goal. Do you think that someone who uses instrumental music in worship doesn't have that goal?

The only purpose I can imagine for raising a question of must we be perfect to be a disciple, is to justify a position that lowers the bar of true discipleship

No, you can imagine another reason. Two people sincerely striving to obey God come to different convictions about some issue. Must each of them reject the other as apostate? That is the question we are supposed to be discussing.

So the real question is, can one be a genuine disciple if he is unwilling to accept the authority of God?

No. The real question is, can two true disciples come to different conclusions from the same scriptures? Do you have so much confidence in your reading comprehension skills that you admit no uncertainty on any biblical subject? What if you are wrong about something?

By: Ed Boggess

Ed Boggess — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:44:02 +0000

Conversion is a transformation of one’s heart or will and life. We are transformed from following lies of the devil to following truth revealed by the Holy Spirit. Enthroned in our heart is the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus, from conversion onward, our one sole desire should be to follow his will and please him. So, yes, we all, if we truly love Jesus, will try to always do his will, follow his words.That is who we are! Disciples! So what merit is it to ask, “must we reach perfect . . .?” That should be the goal of every disciple. “We all stumble in many things” but that does not create an excuse for desiring less than our Lord’s will. The only purpose I can imagine for raising a question of must we be perfect to be a disciple, is to justify a position that lowers the bar of true discipleship. Surely we both agree that it is only by the grace of God and not by trusting a righteousness of our own that we are saved. So the real question is, can one be a genuine disciple if he is unwilling to accept the authority of God? Greg has clearly stated that rejecting God’s authority (however it may play out) does not represent true discipleship.

By: Alan

Alan — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:02:53 +0000

It is my conviction that no error fits into the category of perpetual indulgence.

Let me see if I understand. Are you saying that we must reach perfect understanding and practice of every doctrine of scripture before we die, or else be damned?